Character Gov't

[K]

It's not a bad idea, but I think that it may limit creativity a bit... Granted, Aesthesia will be able to act as a catch-all guild, but some characters won't fit into any guild properly, and they'll wish that we would have made a more generic guild format that allows anyone to benefit from any guild while setting a system by which each character will favor a particular guild over others, even if only slightly. Also, that middle guild sounds to be a bit too... Well, the other two are pretty specific, while the middle one is more generic, really. It's unbalanced. I mean, if you're learning /this/ kind of magic, it's a Nexus-style magic, but it's also based on meditation, focus, and whatnot, so you'd have to pick a guild to go to. It also throws my paladin-style guild out the window.
If you're a martial artist, do you go to the middle or last guild?
If you want to learn some kind of summon magic, do you go to the first guild (since that IS its style in every way, shape, and form) or the middle one (since it requires calmness, meditation, mental awareness outside oneself, and access to a different plane, as well as the fact that many summons are elemental and/or astral)?
You're a ninja. If you're like a real ninja, you'll choose the first guild ten times out of nine, but you also want strength, so you'll visit the last guild. If you're a Naruto-style ninja, you gotta' pull something out of your ass.
You're the kind of paladin who is a lot like the members of that last guild, but uses dark magic, you go to... the middle guild? But, wait... Your style is nothing like the whole calm, meditating, almost spiritual style of the middle guild. It's just what it is...
You're a terramancer. You're fucked, 'cause you belong in all the guilds.
You're a necromancer. Okay, that should be the first one, for the most part... Of course, if your style of necromancy is more along the lines of abilities that are based on your focus, self-control, awareness, yada yada, the middle guild fits, too.
You're a scholar. The first and middle guilds fit equally, or perhaps one more than the other, depending on what kind of scholar.
You're a greasemonkey, ballistician, machinist, or whatever kind of techy, so your style fits... Well, it could fit any of them or a combination, though none really completely...
I could go on. The point is that it seems that it'll limit the creativity of some and overcomplicate things for others.
On the plus side, the whole two-toned guild aspect gave me an idea for the paladin guild.

The looks need to be determined. Take a look at the following pics and think about them, and I'll post the present ideas for them in a bit.

(Attachments were previously here.)

[K]

._. -whines and cries for a while-

. . . . .

You can switch guilds...
You are encouraged to switch guilds if you believe that the destination guild will be more beneficial to you at the time than your current...
You are not encouraged to guild-hop every week or so, like Bill did on Esc...

... Please, tell me that I was clear...

[The Witcher]

What ive wondered is what kind of benifits can be delivered through certain guilds. For instince, if the General lead a guild what would make it diffrent then if ... whats that danmed necromancers name? ANYWAYS, if a necromancer and the General made seperat guilds would there personality and choices as a guild master change the guild perks (if ouur neccromancer is a total ass to most people but plays favorites. And another one is semi-kind but very distant. the only thing between the guilds be the people in it and there actions or)

Do guilds generate or grant some stat or abilite bounses? Like the Generals grants a more intamate knolage of all types of machines or enhanses any mechanical abilites and whatnot? A neccromancers guild rants a boost of mana or spellpower or something? Or is a guild simply a group of people with nothing else enticing peopelt o join besides guilds being guilds?

Have we discussed this already?

[Noah Ivaldi]

As a matter of fact, I don't believe that we've discussed much of that on Sein. I'm glad that you asked.

Well, to begin, each guild doesn't grant a stat bonus. If you'd like to change that, give some details for consideration. As far as abilities... Well, no, as of yet. I'm loosely considering the implementation of such a system, and it's not like I'm short on ideas, but it's still rather iffy, and I'd like to see any such ideas that you guys may have, if any. I'm not considering bonuses that are based on the Grigori, but it is a thought. If you'd like to run with it, again, provide some planned details, and we'll see. By the first glance, though, it seems as though characters would get elected for the wrong reasons.

That brings me to a point that's been mentioned, but not particularly expounded on. Grigori (Gri-GO-ree) are to be elected by such motivators as the following:
Is the candidate active enough to manage a guild and its dealings?
Is the candidate bright enough to come up with good ideas for missions and a good enough role-player to manage them?
Is the candidate responsible?
Does it seem as though the candidate will go power-crazed?
Is the candidate reliable enough to effectively respond to attacks on the guild without panic, with effective military management, et cetera?
Is the candidate competent in dealing with any political dealings that may arise?
(more optionally) Does this particular member accurately depict the methods and perhaps the style of the guild, or does (s)he effectively utilize the methods that match the guild with a refreshingly unexpected style?

There isn't a rule against incumbents or being a Grigori on multiple accounts, but those may come into play as motivators. Each character may only vote for one candidate per election, only in that character's guild, and only for nominated (by self-nomination) member of that guild.

Summarily, having different leaders doesn't presently grant a noteworthy bonus to individual battle capabilities, though it should be noted that Grigori are the people whom make the guild missions, use the respective NPAs (Locco Member, Sacucasu Member, Xuten Member) discretely, mainly for Level Challenges, and will often be the arrangers of tourneys and other events in the Festive Arena.

Anything to add, anyone?

[Silver Fenrir]

Well to address the idea of guilds, grigori, and guild bonuses I have a few ideas to pitch that I believe are fair but are open to suggestions and revisions.

So first off I'd like to address the topic of stats bonuses being granted by a guild. I think this would be an interesting and useful addition to guilds and add a new aspect to characters. Now you may be thinking, "What the hell is he talking about?" well if you're thinking that then shut up and just listen to me, okay? If you take a guild and compare it to let us say a gym. At both places you can get membership and then go there to use the services provided. When you go to a gym you generally should work out and get in better shape, and I believe that guilds should work in the same basic way. You go to the guild and do guild related things you get a slight stats boost in an area that relates to the specific guild; however, if being inactive in the guild, much like being inactive in a gym, you don't gain a boost or slowly lose it over time. I think that's a pretty basic principle that could be worked into something useful for a fair and interesting boost to stats of a character. You might think that we'd have all the melee characters flocking to Sacucasu and all the magic users running for Xuten but I think there is going to be an interesting mix. Magic users might go to Sacucasu in order to boost their strength and defense a bit in order to be a bit hardier in combat while a melee fighter might head to Xuten to get a bit more resistance and magic strength so as to not be as magically vulnerable. Of course the boosts wouldn't be overwhelming or unbalancing in order to keep things fair but still flexible.

Now to address the topic of Grigori and elections and such. So first off since we don't want elections to be based off of any kind of boosts that members might get and want them based on competence and work ethic I think that if there is a Grigori boost system then we shouldn't reveal the boost until after elections finish up. I think that would help to reduce or even eliminate boost voting. So as for addressing the actual idea of a boost for members based on the Grigori currently in the position in the guild. So first off I put forth that the boost is not a stat boost if a guild based stat boost does come into play at some point because people could abuse that to boost one stat high enough to be unbalanced. I think it should be something a bit more abstract in what it boosts. To give an example if Vincent was the Grigori of Sacucasu guild then the members might get a boost in being able to link together abilities more successfully since a lot of Vincent's abilities are meant to be linked into combos. For another example if Komo was a Grigori than the guild members might get a boost to their control of abilities or to boosts in transformation abilities. I think something like that might work though I think some tweaking or suggestions would prove helpful for developing this into a working system.

I think I covered everything I wanted to with this. Does this meet your standards for a good response on your wonderful brainstorming K?

[K]

My problem with this is that people will whine that they're being penalized for inactiviy on the site, while this is supposed to be obligation-free. On one hand, we could set it so that it's based solely on in-char activity, but even then, there's the complaint that people would be essentially forced into guild-related activities to the point that they'd be partially disabled from doing their own things. While my answer to that would be, "Get more active and just write some stuff up more, you lazy people," in all reality, it would be a legitamite argument. If I (read: a user) can only get on a little bit on week X, I'm going to only have time to deal with guild stuffs, and I want to be able to go off and do my own shit. I'm gonna' get pissed at the site, and in stead of maintaining guild stuff so that I'm good when I can get more time to get the balance that I want, I'm just gonna' walk away. Sad face. Aside from that, there's the last part that you mentioned: I like the idea that we should make this significant enough to be worthwhile, but not so significant as to be unfair. However, practically speaking, it's hard to work that. If the maximum reward could be described as that, it won't really be worthwhile, and if the minimum reward could be described as that, it would be a little unfair. If that describes the average reward, that's better, but can still throw things around to the point that it will still either be unfair, insignificant, or both. However, reading the way that you phrased this, it seems as though you are unfamiliar with our training concept, which would overlap with this (hence why it would so easily set things unfair; those of high activity would have just a bit too many advantages). I'll describe it for you promptly.

The second paragraph is very helpful. The idea of boosts being revealed after the election results are in = a pretty handy way to go about it. The last part of it sounds like it could use a lot of tweaking, since it will affect different chars so differently (I mean, look at Laola; it's hard to make her abilities chain together to a noticeable degree without making it unfair. Worse yet, look at Noah, whom is so smart as to be able to cast several spells at once while taking a fairly heavy hit to his MS from some vorpal blade-wielder and still be singing in the rain.), but it is an idea that sounds workable.

You flatter me so... Yeah, this helps a lot. Now, give me a moment, and I'll describe training again, this time in a way that will make it very clear to everyone on its fundamentals.

[K]

To "train" is to designate time for the effort-induced improvement of battle status. This technically includes Level Challenges, but when we refer to training, we're generally speaking of other methods. Assume that to be the case for the rest of this post.

Do you need others to train with? Well, much like in real life, it can be done solo, but it generally works better with help. Of course, use your own judgement; if you're trying to improve some stats or learn some simple abilities, training with others will probably help quite a bit. If you're trying to unlock something about your character's past or the like that will induce some improvements, most people aren't going to be able to help much.
What others should I train with? That depends on what you're training for, of course. If you're looking to train to be stronger or tougher, Sacucasu is a guild that is specifically about these fundamentals, so it's full of helping hands for you. Meanwhile, if you're looking to be lighter on your feet and fingers, if you want to learn to think on the go more readily, and if you're looking to achieve mobile excellence, or if you just want to learn how to get up to that high-ass ledge with that treasure chest, Locco is for you. If you want to hone your mental and magical capabilities, look no further than Xuten. The Atypical Institution also teaches a great many things of all sorts, so you can go study all sorts of aspects there. There're more; those're just the first three guilds and the main school. Of course, you could find others with great capabilities everywhere, but guilds are pretty much the centers of training; they are made to certain purposes. The institution is also specifically made to allow people to study all kinds of things, moreso than Xuten (which is more about studying all kinds of magical aspects).
Do these cost anything? No. The guild members, along with most people around Sein, want everyone to become more powerful; there's a lot of fun and practicality to it. Most volunteer their help for free.
Most? Are there some that charge? Sure, but if someone gives you a price, you can turn it down and train elsewhere, and if someone gives you a price after teaching you, you can always come back to them with some friends (You could talk it over with a Grigori or two to get a mission bill posted to help you out.) and make things a little more fair, yanno'?
What if I want to train others? Knock yourself out. No one's stopping you.
What if I want to charge people to train with me? Sure, but be aware that it'll be an uphill battle to convince people that your help is worth it for an otherwise free service, and be aware of what was said two paragraphs ago.
So, I pretty much need to join a guild to train? Tch, no. A guild member will train you whether you're also a member or not. Just know that they'll prioritize their fellows over you, so you may have to sit and wait your turn, and they may hold back a little extra if you're not in the same guild. The best way to get training from a guild is to join it, then go looking for help, but you can get the same results with just a little more time/effort without joining. You can be in two guilds at once, so it's just a balancing act of what training your char wants to prioritize.

Okay, so is training just for stats? How will Aesthesia come into this? It's not just about stats. It's about abilities, stats, combos, and other tricks; there's pretty much no limit to what you can train for, assuming that it's somewhat logical and you apply enough time and effort. Locco won't just help you improve your SPD and your mobile MS; it'll teach you all sorts of tricks for getting around, and it'll throw in a dash of other things (What's a lot of attack speed without a lot of attack power? Locco members will train you to be faster, then tell you that you should train your STR up to become a really mean, offensive unit. They may refer you to Sacucasu, or they may just give you a little STR training on their own.). Sacucasu will teach you their warrior ways, but they'll also teach you to accompany speed with your power, and they'll say that you should hit up Xuten to put some other spins for when pugilism won't cut it. Xuten will teach you new spells and help you cast them better, but that'll also include casting quickly, moving out of the way, and being tough enough to withstand what hits may come your way. It's a balancing act; all of them can teach you a little of everything and a lot of what they specialize in, so they'll give you some basics in whatever they don't specialize in along with said specialties, then say that you should train your other aspects further, presumably with other guilds (not that they'll stop teaching their specialties, of course). Aesthesia will be a sort of jack-of-all-trades when it comes to stats (moreso than others), and it will teach many aesthetic battle values. Makes sense, right?

What if I put a lot of effort into training something up, then an admin/mod tells me that I wasn't trying very hard and only lets me have a tiny boost? Well, I hate to toot my own horn, but I'm pretty good at judging how much training should improve a character how much. My assessments are logical, and I don't appoint others to be admins unless they also show me that they're very logical. I only appoint mods if they show me that they're at least moderately logical, and if I see anyone taking personal crap out on others, their positions are stripped. So far, that has yet to happen. Even though Leesai hates my guts, when she trains, I'll allow boosts that will be directly proportional to the value of her training, and if I see anyone else doing otherwise, all Hell will break loose. If you think that someone's evaluation of your training is unfair, try reasoning with them. If you're still unsatisfied, talk to another mod/admin, and we'll sit down for an unbiased discussion on the matter.

Any other questions/discrepancies?

[Learpabru]

Copy copy pasta pasta time.

Me
Thanks. Also, there's something else that I'm reconsidering, and it's mainly because civilians have the capability to become normal chars.
Do you think that, upon entering a guild, one should have to take an exam/challenge/whatever to get to Level 1?
See, the way that I was thinking of it is like this:
I'm a normal character. I join a guild and say that I wish to train here to become a better fighter, though I am already capable of battle.

Komo
Well yeah, i think of it as taking a belt test in martial arts. To show that you've mastered your lessons a test must be completed to show this mastery in order to move on to the next level

Me
Yeah, but do you need a belt test for a white belt?
Hence, I am registered as a normal member. I am Lv1.

Komo
nope

Me
Now, you come along. You're a civilian.
See, that's my point. There is logic in the way that it presently is. There's just multiple ways to do it.
You enter, but you say that you just want to study and learn to defend yourself, 'cause you're presently not up-to-snuff.

Komo
But that would be my way of graduating a civilian into a normal character

Me
Okay, so you're registered as a civilian member.
Hang on, hang on.
Now, when you learn enough and get strong enough to be a full-fledged char, you take an exam to reach Lv1.
Once you reach Lv1, you're no longer a civilian by the standards of the guild or the site's usergroups.
The regular member got straight to Lv1 because he was already capable of Lv1 status.
Now, this system makes sense, right? There's just one problem: Logically speaking, how would guild people distinguish which people are already Lv1-capable and which are not?
Sure, we have some awesome scanning abilities and whatnot, but do we want to have everyone who joins a guild wait around to get scanned by 50 mages?
This is what I'm thinking of changing it to:
You and I both go to join the guild. Again, I'm a normal char, and you're a civ.
We both take an exam. I'm Lv1-capable, so I get into the guild as a normal, Lv1 member.
You're not, so you don't. You get into the guild as a civilian. You're not called on for help, and you don't take the same precedence as members like me when it comes to being helped, but you still take precedence over non-members.
(That last part is a description of civilian members in either case, of course.)
Good side: This makes more sense while still allowing civilian members to exist.
Bad side: People historically have a problem with taking an exam to get into a guild.

Komo
have the civies sign some sort of sign-in sheet or form that distinguishes them from the other normal characters
now when you say historically what do you mean by that?

Me
Well, yeah, they register as civilian members. How would we determine one from the next, though?
OOC, we know that Se Taisho is a civilian and Komolo is not. In-char, we- Across the past of other RP sites. -just know that they're both trying to join this guild.
OOC, it's all obvious. In-char, things are more variable.
Put yourself in the position of a guy who is handling guild registrations.

Komo
have them tested to see where they are at
like a civilian will obviously show greater signs of weakness in a spell and/or ability compared to that of a normal character

Me
See, that's what I'm saying!
As it stands, when Mr. C and Mr. N both try to join, you take Mr. N's word that he's already Lv1-capable, and you take Mr. C's word that he's not.
What I'm thinking of changing it to is that Mr. N and Mr. C are both tested for Lv1.

~Fin~

The conversation went on so that everyone who was present is clear on this. Is there are more confusion on what this change entails? If not, allow me to go on to explain guild entry in the new format:

Whether your char is a civilian or a normal char, you go to the guild of your choice.
You ask to be registered as a member.
You are tested. It's called a Guild Exam.
If you show that you are not capable of being a full member (because you're a civilian and are thereby inferior in battle to a normal char), you are registered as a civilian member of the guild that you are at. Civilian members take precedence (when it comes to being helped and taught) over non-members, but not over normal members. Civilian members are not called upon for guild wars or helping other guild members. They are also unable to participate in many quests. They can not take Levelling Challenges; they first have to re-take a Guild Exam to become a Lv1 member, then they can try for higher Levels.
If you show that you are fully Lv1-capable (as you should, if you wrote up a normal character), you are registered as a normal member. Training you takes precedence over training civilian members and non-members.
I suppose that it is possible to fail so miserably that you don't qualify to be a member at all. In that case, train as a non-member until you are at least capable of being a civilian member.
If you go to join a second guild, you can have your first guild refer you so that you don't have to re-test.
Alternatively, you can re-take the Guild Exam at the second guild. If the results vary, the guilds will contact each other and arrange a double-proctored re-examination for you. This will happen whether you inform them of your dual membership or not, because they will find out soon. It is seen as a polite gesture to inform a proctor immediately that you received different results elsewhere so that they can immediately start getting together and revising things.
You can take another Guild Exam at any guild. If you managed to fail so badly that you're not a member of any guild, you can try again. If you are a civilian member, you can take the test to advance to Lv1. If you're already a normal member and something happens that weakens you terribly without a cure in the immediate future, you can test to show that you should be marked as a civilian and should not be called upon for guild wars or helping others.
If you're in two guilds and re-test at one to determine your status, a message will be sent to the other so that you don't have to re-test at both guilds.

[Ceodore Wolfgang]

alright so as far as civilian and normal characters, what about villains? Villains are people who like to mess things up and have a rather poor disposition towards others. Dycedarg for example, is a perfect person for this. He has low social skills and obviously likes to destroy and conquer things. If he were to apply to a guild how would the guild react to him? Would word of his character spread to every guild in the world and therefore make it harder for him to join?

What about a character like Marcelle? She actually has excellent social skills and at the sametime, can lure others (i.e. NPCs Civies, etc.) into a forest and devour them after they put up a somewhat pathetic fight. She's discreet about this, but does it often, will word somehow spread to the other guilds that Marcelle is actually a murderous hunter therefore potentially barring her from entering a guild?

What im basically asking about, is guild treatment towards villains and what the requirements for them joining a guild would be.

[Joanna Larken Shosmyth]

Basically, yes. If a villain, for some reason, decides to join a guild, word will eventually (and probably very soon) get around of xir villainous nature, and xe will be kicked out. The villains rely on the Archvillains as their "guild."

Someone would eventually get away, there would be some witness that Marcelle wouldn't be aware of/able to catch, or something. Word will eventually get out, no matter how sneaky you are, especially with high-Leveled NPCs running around with their awesome abilities.

Guilds won't prevent you from entering on the basis of a gut feeling, but, if they're suspicious of you, they may have you stand around and wait a while as they go around and run a background check, which means that word of some villainous deeds will get in your way quite easily.

[Kaito Inaki]

Ah, alright i was gunna ask about the Archvillains but that sums it up.

And well i see how that works out so it's basically like the guilds are Light Oriented while Archvillains are Dark Oriented

[Laola]

Not exactly. The guilds are sorta' like governments in the real world: They don't care whether you're a good guy, an okay guy, morally ambiguous, questionable, rude, edgy, or whatever else; as long as you're not actively, openly villainous, they'll let you in with them. By contrast, the Archvillains are always trying to get people to join their side (They have cake!) and DO care if you're actively, openly villainous, 'cause that's who they explicitly support!

[Kaito Inaki]

Ok so we know the benefits of being with a guild. What will the benefits of joining with the Archvillains be? Also, im assuming a character that's generally "good" can suddenly turn villain and join up with the Archvillains right?

[Laola]

'Cept that's the problem; we still haven't totally decided on guild membership benefits. Obviously, you take priority when it comes to training, Level Challenges, and whatnot, but do they get some ability or something? If so, is it a blanket deal that's based on the guild, a blanket deal that's based on the Grigori, are we gonna' figure out something different with every char that joins, or what? There's all the stuff that Warren, Trevor, and I discussed, too. Give it a thorough look.

The benefits of hanging with the Archvillains are that they are necessary to your Level-based evolution, and they may sometimes power you up so that you can cause some serious shit (story-based, admin-checked, always fair). You can also ask the Archvillains to train you, too, and they sometimes may, though usually by sending some other bogey to train you.

Well, duh, dude. That's what I just said. Archvillains are always trying to get everyone else to turn rotten.

[Kaito Inaki]

Alright so what I've caught up with so far, is that guilds will not only offer a stat build, but allow you to gain an ability or two.
That's pretty cool actually. What would be cool is that each guild has a different ability to teach after a character reaches a certain level, and certain NPAs will be able to offer the abilities. An example would be that a Lvl. 1 character could learn dash or quick run. At Lvl. 3 that character could learn something High Jump or something along those lines.

Now I don't get what we will be using Aesthesia for. You say it's for aesthetic battle value, but I don't know what that means. Can you give me some info (or atleast point me in the direction of where I can read up on Aesthesia) so i may have a better understanding of it?